Tired of waiting, should I just get a Sony HDR-SR12 or Canon HF100?

Aric · 10-15-2008, 09:10 AM

Hey all. I'm not a cinematographer making indie movies. I'm a Dad wanting to make nice DVDs of my kids. Hopefully BluRay ones sometime in the future as everyone I know owns a BluRay player these days. (Once iDVD supports BluRay.)

Back when the Sony HDR-SR12 was released I was ready to buy one, but at the same time I learned about the Scarlet and the fact that it was targeting soccer moms. I put my plans to buy either a Sony HDR-SR12 or Canon HF100 on hold at that point.

I've been terribly disappointed by both the workflow and video resolution of consumer grade camcorders. I'm not a huge fan of the AVHCHD codec as it tends to get really blocky when there is a lot of motion (both camcorders I mentioned in the subject use that codec.)

The current workflow also sucks. Right now my miniDV camera of course requires capture over FireWire which takes 1:1 time and requires disconnecting all other FireWire devices (due to Canon's assumption of being the only FireWire device apparently.) I have 6 other FireWire devices normally connected through a hub that all have to be unplugged. But I worry the AVHCHD wrokflow won't be much better as iMovie will have to re-encode in the AIC codec which I've read can take longer then 1:1.

So I guess I'm just musing, is the iMovie workflow going to get a lot better with Scarlet (will it support the RED codec natively without going to the AIC codec?) and will Scarlet's video quality in both outdoor and indoor low light be worth the wait? The Scarlet cost compared to the Sony HDR-SR12 ($1,400 MSRP) seems reasonable based on the enhanced resolution of the Scarlet and I have high hopes iMovie will use Scarlet's extra resolution for some post processing imaging stabilization and manual cropping. It's really the waiting and the unknown workflow that have me faltering in my willpower.

BTW yes, I used to own Final Cut Pro. I sold it on eBay. It just took too long for me to put something together with audio etc. I'm not a pro and I don't get paid to do this. So my workflow with the Scarlet will be iMovie for editing and iDVD for authoring. I might have thought Scarlet would require something like Final Cut Pro except when I saw the interview that said they were targeting soccer moms as well as pros.

PacoFilmz · 10-15-2008, 09:24 AM

If you just gonna shoot some video for the kidz i wouldn't buy the scarlet,but thats my opinopn though

fde101 · 10-15-2008, 09:44 AM

Don't expect current versions of iMovie to handle 3k resolution footage. Maybe not future versions either.

Scarlet will be a pro camera, and you may need to reinvest in better software to be able to use one.

Consider the Canon XH A1 as an alternative if you don't want to move up to pro level but are looking for something better than the consumer cams. It's HDV, so it's still the 1:1 import time, but the quality is excellent, for little more than the price that was being targetted for the Scarlet, and it will work with iMovie and iDVD...

I really like mine.

EDIT: clarification: the XH A1 is also all but a professional camera; Canon actually classifies it as professional, though I generally consider it to be prosumer...

Isaac Brody · 10-15-2008, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aric

Hey all. I'm not a cinematographer making indie movies. I'm a Dad wanting to make nice DVDs of my kids.

Unless you're a techie and feel like having the best and newest toys I would go for a consumer camera, something like the HV20 or HF10. Just doesn't seem worth getting a professional tool if you just want to shoot your kids.

Buying something cheaper would be a good way to get your feet wet. If it suits your needs great, but if you want something with more features then wait for Scarlet or pick up something in the prosumer range.

John Caballero · 10-15-2008, 10:29 AM

It will be interesting to see about the soccer moms and RedRaw workflow. Scarlet is supposed to have and RGB format also but we don't know in what codec is going to be either. In fact, at the moment we don't know much at all about Scarlet once again. We are suppose to see the new design in early November.
The problem with not being a pro and dealing with the new codecs is that it requires a certain level of more intense involment in the process. AVCHD is no different than MXF P2 or any new codec in the sense that they are still in the process of integration into NLEs and workflows. There is no escaping the fact that you will need to go thru a learning curve with them that at times may seem complicated and time consuming. To get the most of the footage you shoot you will need to get more involved with the post process of it.

Angus Mackay · 10-15-2008, 10:49 AM

Aric,

judging by your outline I'd say that Scarlet may be a bit of a sledgehammer - maybe not though.

As far as domestic camcorders go, the new Canon HG20 records AVC at 24mbs; I haven't seen it, but that should represent a substantial improvement over previous offerings

check it out anyways

Mr K

fde101 · 10-15-2008, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snuffy

Get something else... Scarlet is quickly turning into vapor ware. Any person that dares say anything bad about it or question whether it is really going to happen is banned and all their messages removed from the boards. I'm guessing I will be banned for saying this but its the truth.

In what way is Scarlet turning into "vaporware"? It hasn't been released yet, but it wasn't scheduled to be released yet either. It doesn't qualify as "vaporware" until the middle of next year -- and that only if it hasn't been released and shipping by then.

This was indeed a stupid post.

We don't ban people for saying bad things about the Scarlet, we just correct them.

Vaporware is really a stretch, though.

Erik Bien · 10-15-2008, 11:42 AM

LOL

Haven't you heard? RED IS A SCAM!

John Caballero · 10-15-2008, 11:55 AM

Please don't start another senseless war of words about what the guy said. He is entitled to his opinion and that is that. You don't have to call the post stupid. Don't respond to it and that's it. You don't have to defend Red because you don't own the company and maybe don't even a Red One. When we have Scarlet in our very own hands to use then we will be able to say it exists and is great. The fact is that at this moment it doesn't exist and that is a reality.

acoelho1 · 10-15-2008, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snuffy

Get something else... Scarlet is quickly turning into vapor ware. Any person that dares say anything bad about it or question whether it is really going to happen is banned and all their messages removed from the boards. I'm guessing I will be banned for saying this but its the truth. but watching the message boards here is like living the movie The Forgotten.... I'm guessing that soon Scarlet will be forgotten and people will wonder what they were waiting for.... Just read the myriad of BS from the the supposed insider and you get the feeling its all just a big con... and as soon as someone starts to question it they are eliminated so they are only around other believers in the vapor ware.

Sony interns trolling again.

10-15-2008, 09:10 AM	#1
Aric Native Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 94	Tired of waiting, should I just get a Sony HDR-SR12 or Canon HF100? Hey all. I'm not a cinematographer making indie movies. I'm a Dad wanting to make nice DVDs of my kids. Hopefully BluRay ones sometime in the future as everyone I know owns a BluRay player these days. (Once iDVD supports BluRay.) Back when the Sony HDR-SR12 was released I was ready to buy one, but at the same time I learned about the Scarlet and the fact that it was targeting soccer moms. I put my plans to buy either a Sony HDR-SR12 or Canon HF100 on hold at that point. I've been terribly disappointed by both the workflow and video resolution of consumer grade camcorders. I'm not a huge fan of the AVHCHD codec as it tends to get really blocky when there is a lot of motion (both camcorders I mentioned in the subject use that codec.) The current workflow also sucks. Right now my miniDV camera of course requires capture over FireWire which takes 1:1 time and requires disconnecting all other FireWire devices (due to Canon's assumption of being the only FireWire device apparently.) I have 6 other FireWire devices normally connected through a hub that all have to be unplugged. But I worry the AVHCHD wrokflow won't be much better as iMovie will have to re-encode in the AIC codec which I've read can take longer then 1:1. So I guess I'm just musing, is the iMovie workflow going to get a lot better with Scarlet (will it support the RED codec natively without going to the AIC codec?) and will Scarlet's video quality in both outdoor and indoor low light be worth the wait? The Scarlet cost compared to the Sony HDR-SR12 ($1,400 MSRP) seems reasonable based on the enhanced resolution of the Scarlet and I have high hopes iMovie will use Scarlet's extra resolution for some post processing imaging stabilization and manual cropping. It's really the waiting and the unknown workflow that have me faltering in my willpower. BTW yes, I used to own Final Cut Pro. I sold it on eBay. It just took too long for me to put something together with audio etc. I'm not a pro and I don't get paid to do this. So my workflow with the Scarlet will be iMovie for editing and iDVD for authoring. I might have thought Scarlet would require something like Final Cut Pro except when I saw the interview that said they were targeting soccer moms as well as pros.

10-15-2008, 10:29 AM	#5
John Caballero Native Join Date: May 2008 Location: N.Y.C. Posts: 714	It will be interesting to see about the soccer moms and RedRaw workflow. Scarlet is supposed to have and RGB format also but we don't know in what codec is going to be either. In fact, at the moment we don't know much at all about Scarlet once again. We are suppose to see the new design in early November. The problem with not being a pro and dealing with the new codecs is that it requires a certain level of more intense involment in the process. AVCHD is no different than MXF P2 or any new codec in the sense that they are still in the process of integration into NLEs and workflows. There is no escaping the fact that you will need to go thru a learning curve with them that at times may seem complicated and time consuming. To get the most of the footage you shoot you will need to get more involved with the post process of it. Last edited by John Caballero; 10-15-2008 at 11:00 AM.

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10-15-2008, 09:24 AM	#2
PacoFilmz Native Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Thehague (The Netherlands) Posts: 13	If you just gonna shoot some video for the kidz i wouldn't buy the scarlet,but thats my opinopn though

10-15-2008, 09:44 AM	#3
fde101 Native Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 1,328	Don't expect current versions of iMovie to handle 3k resolution footage. Maybe not future versions either. Scarlet will be a pro camera, and you may need to reinvest in better software to be able to use one. Consider the Canon XH A1 as an alternative if you don't want to move up to pro level but are looking for something better than the consumer cams. It's HDV, so it's still the 1:1 import time, but the quality is excellent, for little more than the price that was being targetted for the Scarlet, and it will work with iMovie and iDVD... I really like mine. EDIT: clarification: the XH A1 is also all but a professional camera; Canon actually classifies it as professional, though I generally consider it to be prosumer...

10-15-2008, 10:49 AM	#6
Angus Mackay Native Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Scotland Posts: 422	Aric, judging by your outline I'd say that Scarlet may be a bit of a sledgehammer - maybe not though. As far as domestic camcorders go, the new Canon HG20 records AVC at 24mbs; I haven't seen it, but that should represent a substantial improvement over previous offerings check it out anyways Mr K

10-15-2008, 11:42 AM	#8
Erik Bien Native Join Date: May 2008 Location: Dimvur, CO Posts: 242	LOL Haven't you heard? RED IS A SCAM!

10-15-2008, 11:55 AM	#9
John Caballero Native Join Date: May 2008 Location: N.Y.C. Posts: 714	Please don't start another senseless war of words about what the guy said. He is entitled to his opinion and that is that. You don't have to call the post stupid. Don't respond to it and that's it. You don't have to defend Red because you don't own the company and maybe don't even a Red One. When we have Scarlet in our very own hands to use then we will be able to say it exists and is great. The fact is that at this moment it doesn't exist and that is a reality.