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Jerrod Cordell
10-03-2008, 04:21 PM
Serioiusly. Don't vote. Leonardo Dicaprio told me not to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olpCyDA4kYA

Ironically it was shot with the RED ONE. :D

I do agree with the video though and I think everyone should vote. I finally registered yesterday. So if you haven't registered, do it. If you already have, vote. Because after watching the first Presidential debate and the Vice Presidential debate, if a certain political party wins over the other political party, then we are FUCKED

If anyone disagrees with my opinion, or has opinions of your own, go ahead and say it. I'm curious on how everyone's political views are on these forums.

Dances With Cameras
10-03-2008, 04:26 PM
I think that, one day, perfect democracy could be possible using the Internet. Or, at least, a more direct one like - referendums for more stuff and such.

But there will also be more space for scams.

JonFairhurst
10-03-2008, 04:42 PM
Regardless of your party and politics... VOTE!

It's your civic duty. And, if you're not into the duty thing, it's fun!

In Washington State, tomorrow is the last day to register. It's easy. Washington residents can register online:

https://wei.secstate.wa.gov/osos/secure/pages/Onlinevoterregistration.aspx

MattN
10-03-2008, 06:27 PM
Ron Paul '08!

holy_handgrenade
10-03-2008, 06:34 PM
If anyone disagrees with my opinion, or has opinions of your own, go ahead and say it. I'm curious on how everyone's political views are on these forums.

I'm not saying that I disagree but I dont think we've gotten qualified candidates running for office for several decades now. Now we're stuck between 2 very inadequate choices, looking to choose the least inadept one for the job of RUNNING OUR COUNTRY!

The qualified and decent candidates get laughed out, or stomped out so early that most never even hear about what really and truly *could* be in this country. Instead we get the smiling, attractive, charismatic people that people would like to have over for thier bbq or share a beer with.

BTW: The Dems being a little more green, my have the right intentions but have the potentiall for completely screwing us financially moreso than the current situation

The Reps are just antiquated ideas that really, in this day and age, need to conform - conservatives are generally against change, but we need not "conserve" the cold war scare tactics and fears about the world at large either.

I hate both, but I'm going dem because they seem the lesser of the evils at this point.

Kyle Presley
10-03-2008, 06:36 PM
Ron Paul '08!

Amen!

Pietro Impagliazzo
10-03-2008, 06:50 PM
Politics apart...
Gosh, that's a well thought and executed ad.
I can see that influencing people's opinions.

In Brazil voting is obligatory and of course now I'm over 18 and I will vote...
But I'll NULL everything since I have no idea about politics and I'll do less harm this way.

holy_handgrenade
10-03-2008, 07:25 PM
In Brazil voting is obligatory and of course now I'm over 18 and I will vote...

I seriously and truly wish that was the way things were here. As it is, we get less than 1/3 of the elegible voters to turnout and actually vote. Our last election had 101 million votes tallied, out of 380million population (these are citizens, not total occupancy) and those were record numbers!

That and we have our entire election process completely run by the 2 parties. Both parties will try to nit-pick and exclude anyone and everyone they can from voting.

And of course, we would fail any fair and free election test that we design when we're trying to decide if a destabilized 3rd world nation has run a fair election.

I do remember speaking to kids in Brazil, it seems that you guys down there are just more politically plugged in. Short of President, I doubt a 10 year old here can name a single politician. It's just not encouraged to do so here.

Granty
10-03-2008, 09:22 PM
A major global recession is coming, and $700billion ain't going to stop it, it really doesn't matter who the hell is running America over the next 5 years, as ever way it is going to be bad, that dice has been thrown already.

But remember, people have died for democracy, not for your right to vote, but for your right to choose to vote, that's democracy, you have a right to abstain if you feel that no option represents your politics - and once enough people abstain a new political system will rise to represent the un-represented.

Tim Hole
10-03-2008, 09:37 PM
A major global recession is coming, and $700billion ain't going to stop it, it really doesn't matter who the hell is running America over the next 5 years, as ever way it is going to be bad, that dice has been thrown already.

But remember, people have died for democracy, not for your right to vote, but for your right to choose to vote, that's democracy, you have a right to abstain if you feel that now option represents your politics. And once enough people abstain a new political system will rise to represent the un-represented.

Very true statement. It annoys the hell outta me, as i don't see any leadership qualities in any of the lead runners in this country (UK). In the US anything is better than Bush. ---looking forward to seeing W.

dispite the politics of all involved, the point of just having a black president is a step in a direction. They are all gonna do the same thing anyway, promise the same crap and not deliver. Why not shake things up a little.

Granty
10-03-2008, 09:46 PM
In the US anything is better than Bush. ---looking forward to seeing W.

dispite the politics of all involved, the point of just having a black president is a step in a direction. They are all gonna do the same thing anyway, promise the same crap and not deliver. Why not shake things up a little.

If only they realised Bush was a fool before, we thought the Iraq war and human rights would be his worst history, now it looks like it is going to be the blackest recession in world history!

A black president is a truely great step for America, but I'm afraid that he will need to be hardcore to prove himself as the first black president, look at Thatcher in the UK - first female leader for us, and she was almost a nazi, and didn't or couldn't do a thing for women because of that, never again, stay in the kitchen sisters, peace out.

The bad thing about modern western politics is that it is based on focus groups, and when people say it doesn't mater who you vote for, it is really very true, to hold on to that power they listen to a focus of centralised-politics, so until we all get a little less greedy and more educated then we are all stuck with the same old, same old. It isn't the leaders fault but the people who they listen to, us!

Jared Caldwell
10-03-2008, 10:35 PM
I don't really think race has anything to do with it. I think the step in the right direction is a good president, regardless of gender or race.

Jerrod Cordell
10-03-2008, 11:32 PM
Very true statement. It annoys the hell outta me, as i don't see any leadership qualities in any of the lead runners in this country (UK). In the US anything is better than Bush. ---looking forward to seeing W.

And the problem with McCain is some of his policies sound even worse than Bush (hard to say, huh?). And people, more than any election in the past, need to really focus on each candidates running mate. If McCain is elected, who knows how long it will be 'til he kicks the bucket, and if Obama is elected, (and I pray to God it doesn't happen) there's a chance that some racist KKK nutjob is going to try to take a shot at him. I've always liked Biden. He's very straightforward but he knows his stuff.

Sarah Palin...I don't even know where to start with her. If Bush lived in Alaska, had his head hit a few more times, and got a sex change, that's would create Sarah Palin.

dispite the politics of all involved, the point of just having a black president is a step in a direction. They are all gonna do the same thing anyway, promise the same crap and not deliver. Why not shake things up a little.

I really don't think race should be an issue, but I did find it kind of funny in the debate when McCain (who wouldn't even look at Obama the whole debate) insulted Obama he would give McCain a "What you say bitch?!" look.

Ayoji
10-04-2008, 12:39 AM
I would love if the U.S make its own currency backed by gold.
Ron Paul!:)

The true rulers of the world are the ones who make the money!!!

Jared Caldwell
10-04-2008, 12:43 AM
I am for smaller government (Ron Paul). The problem with both parties is that they take measures for bigger government. IF they both go for big government, what is the lesser of two evils? For me, it is definitely McCain.

To me, it all boils down to $$. Money is what will affect me on a day to day basis. I feel that I already have my rights, so there are no social issues that I feel strongly about right now. The way people are taxed and what the government spends its money on is a big factor in my day to day. Obama wants to raise taxes and spend more money = bigger government. The government cannot manage money correctly, and will always have large amounts of waste for your tax dollars. Obama states that 95% of America is getting a tax break, but that is completely BS.

The VAST majority of tax revenue generated is from the upper class. That is why it is "easy" for Obama to give "95%" of Americans a tax break: he will just raise taxes for the upper class. Which, to most, that sounds great, but it has a LOT of major issues.

1. We are supposed to live in a free and equal country. Taxing people unfairly sounds very much like Robin Hood: taking from the rich and giving to the poor. This is a nice story and all, but it is't exactly fair, is it? The funny thing is that the people these tax increases really hurt is small business owners. Do you think Bill Gate's lifestyle is changed if the government decides to raise taxes? No way. What about struggling small business owners? Definitely. The more small businesses that close shop, the more giant corporations stick around.

The most ironic thing? A lot of people attack large corporations (Sony, anyone?), and don't care if they are taxed more (of course, small business owners are really feeling the burden, mind you) when the largest business in the US is the government.

Yes.

The United States Government is the largest, sloppiest, most wasteful business that our nation has. And Obama wants to make that business larger. Well, if you take a look at our economic situation, the government hasn't done such a wonderful job, have they? :)

By the way, most Democrats (really, most everyone) blame Bush for everything, yet guess who has controll over the House and Senate? The Democrats. The president cannot do everything. If anyone is to blame, it is the lawmakers (Democrats).

I don't like either candidate, but I have to choose the lesser of two evils. Obama wants to spend a lot more money = bad. Obama wants to create a national healthcare system that we can't support = WORSE healthcare than we already have (if you want to know what the worst healthcare in our country is, try military healthcare. Guess who runs military healthcare? :D)= more money = more taxes.

The liberal media will have you believe that Obama is a rock star, but he is just getting churned up by the liberal media machine.

Sarah Palin? The media is trying EVERYTHING they can to get you to hate her. If people can name me some largly negative things about her ability to help run the country, I would love to debate. When she became Governor of Alaska, she sold the Governer's private jet and gave the money back to the taxpayers. She challenged corruption in her own party, ran against it, and won. She is very fiscally conservative, and is pro-environment.

You can talk about her down syndrum child, her pregnant daughter, and her interview with KC, but those are all petty things to bring into a race when you look at all of the other candidates. Joe Biden has stuck his foot in his mouth so many times, he must have permanent teeth marks on his ankles. McCain left the wife that supported him during vietnam and never gave up on him when he was a POW for another woman. Obama has about as much experience to run this country as my little cousin. I have even heard remarks that question her judgment in running for office after she just had a baby! This is insane! If a male candidate's wife just had a baby, nobody would be questioning him as to why he was running for office!

It is one messed up race, but don't be fooled by the media. They love to spin people! :)

I am not trying to offend anyone, but it is something that I feel passionately about. When you hear the irresponsible biased reporting in the media, and then you get a whole flood of people who are saying THE EXACT SAME THING without actually checking sources and voting records, you definitely see how easy it is for people to become sheep. (I am not suggesting Democrats or those that support them are sheep, just people who let the media implant ideas into their brains!:))

The only good thing about this race is that it is a sign of change. I think that race and gender have nothing to do with how good a candidate is, but it is great to see minorities and women finally being represented on an equal level. :)

lnp25
10-04-2008, 12:43 AM
Hey.. speaking of voting... Don't know if anyone is in the San Francisco Bay Area, but I'm playing an event for Obama called Barack and Roll on Oct. 23rd in San Rafael. Shoot me a pm if you want more details... Ps.. Would love to get some video of the gig if anyone's interested...

CB
GO VOTE! I don't care who for, but exercise your civic duty to VOTE! Too many people around the world can't, so get out and choose who you want to run this country!

CB

EDIT: Don't tell the people at this event... but... Anything is better than G.w.b... I like McCain... I would even think about voting for him if he didn't choose Palin for a running mate...As soon as he did that, I lost all respect for the man.... no one sane that understands what is going on in the world and with any ability to read people would pick that....*#@@&#*#&#*#&@*#&#*#......nuff said.... I liked him to start.... I was always voting for Obama, but still, I wouldn't have been that upset if McCain won... But with Palin..... wow.... ok..


Come to Barack and Roll! Anyone want to do video for me?

CB

Jared Caldwell
10-04-2008, 12:55 AM
Hey.. speaking of voting... Don't know if anyone is in the San Francisco Bay Area, but I'm playing an event for Obama called Barack and Roll on Oct. 23rd in San Rafael. Shoot me a pm if you want more details... Ps.. Would love to get some video of the gig if anyone's interested...

CB
GO VOTE! I don't care who for, but exercise your civic duty to VOTE! Too many people around the world can't, so get out and choose who you want to run this country!

CB

EDIT: Don't tell the people at this event... but... Anything is better than G.w.b... I like McCain... I would even think about voting for him if he didn't choose Palin for a running mate...As soon as he did that, I lost all respect for the man.... no one sane that understands what is going on in the world and with any ability to read people would pick that....*#@@&#*#&#*#&@*#&#*#......nuff said.... I liked him to start.... I was always voting for Obama, but still, I wouldn't have been that upset if McCain won... But with Palin..... wow.... ok..


Come to Barack and Roll! Anyone want to do video for me?

CB

I don't like Obama, but I would love to help you if I lived on the west coast! :)

holy_handgrenade
10-04-2008, 01:31 AM
The VAST majority of tax revenue generated is from the upper class. That is why it is "easy" for Obama to give "95%" of Americans a tax break: he will just raise taxes for the upper class. Which, to most, that sounds great, but it has a LOT of major issues.


There's a problem with the logic there. I, as a middle income single male, get taxed upwards of 35% of my total annual income. Bill gates on the otherhand, is only taxed roughly 4-9% of his income. While the amount of that 4-9% is vastly larger than my contribution, he gets to keep a lot more of what he works for. Your fairness logic is broken. I would GREATLY and gladly pay what i'm paying now (no cut, no increase) IF those in those higher tax brackets were paying a LOT closer (percentage wise, not value wise) to what I'm paying. There are too many tax shelters and breaks that are ONLY available to those in the top 2%.

As far as McCain goes - He's been my senator (AZ) for as long as I can remember. About 15 years ago I really did admire him for his stances. As of about 8 years ago - he's kinda flipped - not completly but he has gone a little crazy. His "not following party lines" and his "maverick" appearances is a bunch of media hype. It's VERY true that he doesn't follow party lines - he follows popular lines, which is never in line with any given party. Which means his issues are only the popular ones at hand.

As far as war is concerned - McCain and Palin litterally scare the crap outta me!!!! Niether one is opposed to a pre-emptive NUCLEAR STRIKE! Palin is all about going after and punishing Russia, and McCain might be up to date on dealing with Korea, but it's scary how little he (and the bush administration) know about the middle east - Especially when dealing with Iran.

Obama, as inexperienced as he is - I'd sooner have him representing me than the McCain/Palin camp any day. I think that it's his inexperience that would be of great benefit in these issues as he would be more open to talking and compromise - and less open to spreading our military any thinner than it is now by trying to go after Iran preemptively, with no provocation or reason. Also, his dealing with Russia would also put me at ease a bit better than the GOP which still touts Communism and Socialism as the great plage and greatest enemy to our country. McCain is of the "Red Scare" camp to be sure!

just my 2 cents.

lnp25
10-04-2008, 01:41 AM
I'm all for people that don't believe that dinosaurs walked the earth 3000 years ago.. (ps.. they will have the nuclear codes)

CB

holy_handgrenade
10-04-2008, 01:50 AM
I'm all for people that don't believe that dinosaurs walked the earth 3000 years ago.. (ps.. they will have the nuclear codes)

CB

Ahh, so that's how the Egyptians built the pyramids! Were you saying closer to 30,000?

Jared Caldwell
10-04-2008, 01:54 AM
holy, how do you pay 35% if you are middle class? The highest tax bracket pays 35%. Where are you getting your figures for the upper class? If you are referring I loopholes, then that is the fault of the lawmakers. That is all beside the point, because when you are raising taxes because of loopholes, small buisness and private medical practices don't get those same breaks. So there is no "flaw in my logic", because that doesn't make a case against my argument.

Also, Obama said he thought we should be focusin the war on Afgahnistan (and even Pakistan if they get in our way)! I would much rather have an experienced leader. Also, I have yet to hear anything about nukes and going to war with Russia. McCain specifically stated that he thoght what Russia did was wrong, and we shouldn't let that happen, but nothing about war....

EDIT: I am not upper class, nor think they should get special treatment. I just think we should have freedom, and places where we don't (like in paying taxes) we should be treated fairly. I am for less spending and a less powerful national government. We should be more free to live our lives...

holy_handgrenade
10-04-2008, 02:14 AM
Jared;

Approximately 25% of my check is withheld by my employer. Extra income from event business, etc, gets zapped at the end of the year. Running the figures of what I owe vs. what I made roughly equates to 35% - yes. It's the single white male tax - it sux. If I were married, or had a kid or 3, then yes, I wouldn't be paying anywhere near that in taxes.

BTW: This wasn't in reference to either one of thier proposed tax plans. I suggest you snopes the issue if that's your sole argument to base on. From what I can see, neither one is going to make any real difference one way or another, both are minimal changes.

McCain may not be mentioning war now - but in the Republican debates when they were still trying to figure out who was going to be in the primaries vs who was going to get the nomination - it was a clear questions in regards to Iran, "Do you think that a preemptive nuclear strike with Iran is reasonable" There was only 1 candidate who said "No, are you nuts?!?!" and that was Ron Paul.

Palin, has repeatedly mentioned in the weeks after the Georgia conflict that "Russia must be punished" That "Russia is back to it's old tricks" and how "We can never in good faith enter any agreement with Russia"

Afgahnistan is where the war SHOULD be focused. We arent a nation of nation building - which is what our entire exercise in Iraq has been. Regardless of your moral stance on ousting a dictator (there are far worse in our own backyards than Saddam could hope to be but they're our "friends" so we look the other way) - we still invaded a soverign nation under false pretenses. Which is WRONG. And Pakistan has been rather tricky lately - they've accused us of bombing them, and we've accused them of killing our soldiers. So far we've been able to peacibly avoid outright confrontation - but going forward - IT may happen - especially considering that all intel says Bin Laden is in Pakistan, but Pakistan wont let us in to find him, and aren't offering assistance on thier end to find him. Quality intel has also revealed that the Taliban's strongholds where they've been regrouping is in Pakistan - let's not forget why we're in the war to begin with. Honestly Iraq is the "innocent" in this battle, as they had nothing to do with 9/11, no Al-Queda bases, No ties to Bin Laden, and after 7 years, no WMD's have been found either - so yes, let's get out of Iraq, and focus on the reasons we're fighting to begin with.

holy_handgrenade
10-04-2008, 02:25 AM
EDIT: I am not upper class, nor think they should get special treatment. I just think we should have freedom, and places where we don't (like in paying taxes) we should be treated fairly. I am for less spending and a less powerful national government. We should be more free to live our lives...

I couldn't agree more! :)

lnp25
10-04-2008, 03:18 AM
no.. palin believes dinosaurs walked the earth 3,000 years ago...

If you believer this, you should NOT be given the codes to the nuclear codes...

I don't know if there is a god or not, but I know dinosaurs were not here 3,000 years ago..... If you can't believe the fundamentals of modern science, you should not be given the power to destroy the world.. imho...

CB

Dances With Cameras
10-04-2008, 03:21 AM
But remember, people have died for democracy, not for your right to vote, but for your right to choose to vote, that's democracy, you have a right to abstain if you feel that no option represents your politics - and once enough people abstain a new political system will rise to represent the un-represented.


Very true.

That's what I'm doing here for the last 5-6 years.

Stefan Christou
10-04-2008, 04:15 AM
http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2008/09/30/congress-confronts-its-contradictions/

If you want an eye opener on the bail out then read the articel in the abouve link

Scar
10-04-2008, 04:45 AM
hyperreality :)

Tim Hole
10-04-2008, 06:13 AM
no.. palin believes dinosaurs walked the earth 3,000 years ago...

If you believer this, you should NOT be given the codes to the nuclear codes...

I don't know if there is a god or not, but I know dinosaurs were not here 3,000 years ago..... If you can't believe the fundamentals of modern science, you should not be given the power to destroy the world.. imho...

CB

Dude he's been in power for what is it two terms and according to CNN has spent 1/3 of that time on vacation. Actually I'm sure Bush still think there is dinosaurs walking the earth today cause he's seen jurassic park.

You guy's know your countries temperament, policies and party leaders. In my opinion, though it shouldn't be about race, I think you still need to have a black leader to rest some issues. Its all down to the chaos/control philosophy.

Granty
10-04-2008, 07:29 AM
http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2008/09/30/congress-confronts-its-contradictions/

If you want an eye opener on the bail out then read the articel in the abouve link

That bail-out is the worst political nightmare in my lifetime, I can't see how any educated person would back it, yet all the big American political big-wigs backed it!!!

And that Palin is proof, the devil does wear Prada, u betcha, wink.

Jerrod Cordell
10-04-2008, 08:00 AM
I am for smaller government (Ron Paul). The problem with both parties is that they take measures for bigger government. IF they both go for big government, what is the lesser of two evils? For me, it is definitely McCain.

I am totally okay with smaller government. I would prefer smaller government. But the fact is that Republicans in recent years have made the government more powerful than ever. And under McCain's plan, it will stay that way for the next four years.

To me, it all boils down to $$. Money is what will affect me on a day to day basis. I feel that I already have my rights, so there are no social issues that I feel strongly about right now. The way people are taxed and what the government spends its money on is a big factor in my day to day. Obama wants to raise taxes and spend more money = bigger government. The government cannot manage money correctly, and will always have large amounts of waste for your tax dollars. Obama states that 95% of America is getting a tax break, but that is completely BS.

The VAST majority of tax revenue generated is from the upper class. That is why it is "easy" for Obama to give "95%" of Americans a tax break: he will just raise taxes for the upper class. Which, to most, that sounds great, but it has a LOT of major issues.

1. We are supposed to live in a free and equal country. Taxing people unfairly sounds very much like Robin Hood: taking from the rich and giving to the poor. This is a nice story and all, but it is't exactly fair, is it? The funny thing is that the people these tax increases really hurt is small business owners. Do you think Bill Gate's lifestyle is changed if the government decides to raise taxes? No way. What about struggling small business owners? Definitely. The more small businesses that close shop, the more giant corporations stick around.

Yes, I've also heard of McCain's statistic about how 23 million business owners would see a tax increase. Bush actually made a similar statistic in the 2004 election when John Kerry was going to raise taxes for everyone making $200,000 or more a year. The Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center projects that by 2009, only 663,608 taxpayers with a business income will fall into that top 2% bracket.

And honestly, the rich does need to be taxed a bit more than the middle class. Yes, we are a capitalist society, but when capitalism goes a bit too far it can turn into a disaster. Look at the fall of Rome. Two of the biggest reasons why Rome fell was because of corrupt politicians and the rich were becoming too rich and the poor were becoming too poor. And frankly, if America keeps it up we will be heading in that direction not before long.


By the way, most Democrats (really, most everyone) blame Bush for everything, yet guess who has controll over the House and Senate? The Democrats. The president cannot do everything. If anyone is to blame, it is the lawmakers (Democrats).

I would assume that is because the Democrats are still doing damage control from Bush's first four years.

I don't like either candidate, but I have to choose the lesser of two evils. Obama wants to spend a lot more money = bad. Obama wants to create a national healthcare system that we can't support = WORSE healthcare than we already have (if you want to know what the worst healthcare in our country is, try military healthcare. Guess who runs military healthcare? :D)= more money = more taxes. Gee, that's funny. The only thing I've heard about McCain's health care plan is that people should have healthcare. But it's okay. I'll just blindly trust our politicians like many did in Bush's first term. :thumbsup:

Sarah Palin? The media is trying EVERYTHING they can to get you to hate her. If people can name me some largly negative things about her ability to help run the country, I would love to debate. When she became Governor of Alaska, she sold the Governer's private jet and gave the money back to the taxpayers. She challenged corruption in her own party, ran against it, and won. She is very fiscally conservative, and is pro-environment. You can talk about her down syndrum child, her pregnant daughter, and her interview with KC, but those are all petty things to bring into a race when you look at all of the other candidates.

Hah! Well, hold on. Let me think about this for a second. Well, she wants to obliterate Russia and honestly believes we can do it because she lives very close to Russia in her home in Alaska.

She's a religious extremist. Like the kind that will hit you in the head to make the demons come out of you.

If you listened to her debate or any interview she's been in, she has a tendency to repeat the same points over and over again because she's rehearsed what she is supposed to say. She doesn't really know how anything works, she just knows that they work.

And honestly, I think a politicians personal business is just that. Their personal business. She could be a part time stripper, and if she was the right person for the job, then I would be okay with that. It's a job, and if you can do the job right then everything else should be put aside. And I personally believe that Sarah Palin is just not up for the job.

It is one messed up race, but don't be fooled by the media. They love to spin people! :)

Yes they do. ;)

I am not trying to offend anyone, but it is something that I feel passionately about. When you hear the irresponsible biased reporting in the media, and then you get a whole flood of people who are saying THE EXACT SAME THING without actually checking sources and voting records, you definitely see how easy it is for people to become sheep. (I am not suggesting Democrats or those that support them are sheep, just people who let the media implant ideas into their brains!:)) And I completely agree with that. News is always biased. Whether it's MSNBC or Fox News. That is why people need to RESEARCH. Find the facts themselves and make their own opinion.

The only good thing about this race is that it is a sign of change. I think that race and gender have nothing to do with how good a candidate is, but it is great to see minorities and women finally being represented on an equal level. :)

And God knows we need the change. But if McCain wins I will still consider moving to Canada. I heard Toronto's good for Indie Film Making :D

David Rasberry
10-04-2008, 08:04 AM
As Doris Haddock (Granny D) says," Democracy is not something you have, it is something you do."

Republicans doubled the national debt under Reagan, and tripled it under Bush while cumulatively reducing marginal tax rates for the wealthy by 70%, meaning the top 1% of the population. Spending is taxation, whether we pay it now or in the future. The Democrats have not been innocent in all of this either, but Republican economic policies, as they have historically done, favor transfer of wealth from the middle class to the already obscenely wealthy. When the top 1% have ( I won't say earn) more income than the bottom 150,000,000, you have a very lopsided economy that can't continue to prosper. Trickle down economics ultimately doesn't work for the rest of us, it will only turn this country into a third world plantation economy.

Ignore the personal politics and the news cycles and read the party platforms and policy statements, for third parties too. Then vote for the candidates and parties that are closest to meeting your own policy views, even it that is a third party. Policy wise, the Socialists were the most influential party during the 20th century, though they never won a major election.

Average Americans are getting a raw deal from their government's favoritism to international corporate greed. For example, we pay twice as much per person for our health care system, 16% of GDP, as most other major industrial democracies. The next most expensive is Germany, and they pay 40% less than we do. Yet all of the others manage to provide comprehensive universal health care for all of their citizens. The US ranks with 3rd world countries like Cuba in quality and availability of care and general health of the population by many standards of measure from incidence of serious disease, to infant mortality, to life expectancy. Why are we getting such a lousy deal? Why aren't people really angry about this?

wardovision
10-04-2008, 08:12 AM
By the way, most Democrats (really, most everyone) blame Bush for everything, yet guess who has controll over the House and Senate? The Democrats. The president cannot do everything. If anyone is to blame, it is the lawmakers (Democrats).


Yeah, but only for the last 2 years and none of these problems are from legislation drafted in that time. Before that it was a Republican controlled Senate/ House of Representatives for quite a long time.

Bush has done more damage to this country than any one person in American history and should have been impeached for orchestrating an illegal war.

Granty
10-04-2008, 08:19 AM
For example, we pay twice as much per person for our health care system, 16% of GDP, as most other major industrial democracies. The next most expensive is Germany, and they pay 40% less than we do. Yet all of the others manage to provide comprehensive universal health care for all of their citizens. The US ranks with 3rd world countries like Cuba in quality and availability of care and general health of the population by many standards of measure from incidence of serious disease, to infant mortality, to life expectancy. Why are we getting such a lousy deal? Why aren't people really angry about this?

The American health system is a shame, but is is hard to compare, when you look at the standard of living and tax. Wikipedia a few western countries and you will see.

That money you save should have been saved for such health care plans, if you spent it on video, film and IT kit, then you really can't blame the government... but that doesn't help the poor. In my book, any progressive country that doesn't have a social health service isn't really a progressive country.

France and UK have the best social health systems in the world, by chance they both have a history of being highly revolutionary socialistic countries, if you ain't on the streets pulling the system apart then you can't complain much, can ya?

The way America treats the sick, it doesn't deserve to have any sick people.

Jared Caldwell
10-04-2008, 08:32 AM
I am away from my computer right now (I am using my phone), so I can't really respond to any of your points, but I will later tonight! Great points all around, and I look forward to continue this! :)

Granty
10-04-2008, 08:34 AM
I am away from my computer right now (I am using my phone), so I can't really respond to any of your points, but I will later tonight! Great points all around, and I look forward to continue this! :)

We all look forward to the wisdom of Jared

Jared Caldwell
10-04-2008, 08:39 AM
We all look forward to the wisdom of Jared

I hope that wasn't sarcasm!:( I am not trying to act all knowing (because I am definitely not!), I just have an opinion like everyone else is all!:)

Granty
10-04-2008, 08:45 AM
I hope that wasn't sarcasm!:( I am not trying to act all knowing (because I am definitely not!), I just have an opinion like everyone else is all!:)

It wasn't sarcasm, you make some very wise points, you are a good person to engage with on any thread.

I was bigging you up dude...

Jared Caldwell
10-04-2008, 08:51 AM
It wasn't sarcasm, you make some very wise points, you are a good person to engage with on any thread.

I was bigging you up dude...

Thanks bro! I thought so, I just didn'twant to assume anything!:) Gotta run!

David Rasberry
10-04-2008, 08:57 AM
Taiwan had the same kind of costly private health insurance mess that the US has. They changed it a few years ago after evaluating the health care systems of all the major players. Ironically, the system they chose is modeled on the American Medicare system. This is a universal single payer program with insurance premiums based on actual medical costs of annually negotiated rate contracts for services with private health care providers, tax subsidized for the poor. Your health insurance card gets you fully prepaid services for the treatment of any disease or injury at the doctor and facility of your choice, no restrictions. Administrative cost is less than 2%, per person cost to date around $3.5k a year.

By comparison, I pay about $8K a year for a major medical policy that only covers 80% of hospitalization costs. No preventive care, or coverage of non-hospital medical costs at all. I actually went to the emergency room for severe chest pain a couple of years ago, as is recommended by health care practitioners. It turned out to be only a bad case of acid reflux, not a heart attack thank God. Because I was not admitted to the hospital, I had to pay the bill for this visit out of pocket. Insurance did not cover it. $1400 for two x-rays, an electrocardiogram, and a cup of antacid.

I don't mind paying for health insurance, I would just like to get the level of services that premium rates should cover.

Jerrod Cordell
10-04-2008, 09:05 AM
I hope that wasn't sarcasm!:( I am not trying to act all knowing (because I am definitely not!), I just have an opinion like everyone else is all!:)

All hail the all knowing, all seeing Jared Caldwell! :D Just kidding man.

I think it's kind of funny how we have one Jared on the right side and one Jerrod (me) on the left.

johnvid
10-04-2008, 09:23 AM
For once I probably agree with Leonardo, don't vote, and perhaps don't buy anything for a while, to really stick it too them(except for red & scarlet as they represent real bargains:)...watch the prices fall.

I mean look at these greedy F***Wits

http://i35.tinypic.com/t83gx1.jpg

Forget the Internet for voting, it's the TV Remote, but they dont like referendums because they know they dont really educate the masses, and they wouldn't vote they way they want us too..

Which is to vote them all out of a job.

Granty
10-04-2008, 10:18 AM
All hail the all knowing, all seeing Jared Caldwell! :D Just kidding man.

I think it's kind of funny how we have one Jared on the right side and one Jerrod (me) on the left.

But, that is sarcasm

Dances With Cameras
10-04-2008, 10:32 AM
Forget the Internet for voting, it's the TV Remote, but they dont like referendums because they know they dont really educate the masses, and they wouldn't vote they way they want us too..

Which is to vote them all out of a job.


They should do what we tell them. :furious3:

Isn't democracy about that?

I mean, if people get organised and protest, the pressure should get the political elite to change the game.

acoelho1
10-04-2008, 11:05 AM
Both parties are corrupt and in the pockets of corporations. Wall Street has given 19 million to John McCain and 21 million to Barack Obama. 2 party corporate system has a monopoly on our democracy. "Republicrats" are hard at work distributing wealth and the bailout was another example. If they were so concerned about these mortgage securities then why not put a freeze on foreclosures and force banks to renegioate or allow bankruptcy judges more authority to restructure loans. Look up the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act of 1999, which repealed many protections in the Glass-Stegall Act enacted after the Great Depression and stock market crash. This was done with a Republican Congress and Democratic President. Vote for real change...Nader 08!

Granty
10-04-2008, 11:22 AM
As the old saying goes, 'Politics is perception', reality is something else.

David Rasberry
10-04-2008, 12:01 PM
Both parties are corrupt and in the pockets of corporations. Wall Street has given 19 million to John McCain and 21 million to Barack Obama. 2 party corporate system has a monopoly on our democracy. "Republicrats" are hard at work distributing wealth and the bailout was another example. If they were so concerned about these mortgage securities then why not put a freeze on foreclosures and force banks to renegioate or allow bankruptcy judges more authority to restructure loans. Look up the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act of 1999, which repealed many protections in the Glass-Stegall Act enacted after the Great Depression and stock market crash. This was done with a Republican Congress and Democratic President. Vote for real change...Nader 08!


Good points all.

Jerrod Cordell
10-04-2008, 03:44 PM
Haha! I'm loving this flow chart.

http://external.ak.fbcdn.net/safe_image.php?d=5957860299d4c6f333e69873ab50e5ec&url=http%3A%2F%2Fimages40.fotki.com%2Fv1337%2Fphot os%2F3%2F3909%2F240068%2Fpalinflow-vi.gif

Stefan Christou
10-04-2008, 04:12 PM
It's a complete sham.

Just look at the amendment in the bailout bill for a tax break for manufacturers of children's toy arrowheads.

Did a certain senator get a rather large contribution for his campaign for re-election from the owner of a company that manufactures children's toy arrowheads? It's highly likely.

In Africa they call this corruption. In Florida when they steal an election by inhibiting members of a certain ethnic group from voting they call it a win for the Republicans.

Shame. Shame on all of us for allowing this shit to happen

holy_handgrenade
10-04-2008, 06:32 PM
In Africa they call this corruption. In Florida when they steal an election by inhibiting members of a certain ethnic group from voting they call it a win for the Republicans.

Yes. The tools and "tests" we have designed (we being UN, not just U.S.) to verify the fairness and validity of electoral processes in destabalized or restructuring nations (Haiti, Dominican Republic, anywhere in Africa, etc) We regularly fail the most simple and telling of those very tests.

Exit polling, for example - Per the UN, if the exit polls show a dramatic difference than the actual outcome - the election is put on hold, peace keepers storm the country and a new election is held. Here in the good ol' US of A we mock the polling process and assume that people lie on them (Exit polls in 2004 showed Kerry as a clear winner, not a close call)

We've also turned over our entire electoral process out of the hands of the government and into the hands of the 2 parties - They alone make the rules, they alone "allow" you to vote. And each one does litterally everything within thier power to exclude votes.

The big debacle in Florida for example, swaths of democratic registered voters were excluded from the rosters by republicans because thier SSN, Last name, First name, and/or date of birth were SIMILAR to registered felons. Read that again - SIMILAR - not confirmed felons, but similarities also exclude you.

We need serious reform - but as long as the highest paid individuals working for any given company/corporation are the full-time lobbyists, guess it's going to be a LOT harder to change all that.

Ayoji
10-04-2008, 06:36 PM
No matter who wins to be US President we are all screwed. The economy wont turn on a dime even if it is heading in the right direction and this will be slow for the rest of the world also. The President wont be able to offer any new programs or agendas. I doubt they would even be re-elected by the people(maybe if the US looks better).

Corruption is what is killing the U.S. and the rest of the world. I beg you guys to see Arron Russo's America:Freedom to Fascism and then look up the facts of how this system is operated now versus how it was formed according to the Constitution/Bill of Rights.

Here is the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ueEfRXZCVA

Granty
10-04-2008, 08:23 PM
Forget the Internet for voting, it's the TV Remote, but they dont like referendums because they know they dont really educate the masses, and they wouldn't vote they way they want us too..

Which is to vote them all out of a job.

John it is not that they don't what a referendum, it is really that you and me don't what it, imagine if every bill and policy was taken to a public vote, nothing would ever get done, one week it would be legal to do something, the next week illegal, then legal again, chaos.

The reason we vote for politicians is to make the right choices for us, and on the whole they do, if we had a vote to lower taxes for the middle classes, or no taxes, the mass of middle classes would probably say, great idea. On the whole the public are stupid, selfish and uneducated, if everyone was like a ScarletUser then put it to a public vote, as they aren't, we have a shit system, but it just about works.

Also you may state that neither parties want to win the next election in America or UK, if the next 4-5 years are going to be bad and boom again, then it is a good ideal to let the opposition win, let them be hurt for the next 15 years, remembered for running the country in it's darkest point in History.

Worst still, I heard a LSE professor talking about this over a year ago, he was saying when you look at a major downturn in the market it is about a major economic and political shift happening, 1930's was money and power drifting from Europe to US, the market fell apart and then rebuild itself again, and this intelligent economics professor was stating over a year ago that the same thing is about to happen again as the political and economic power shifts from the States to Asia, it is likely that America will never be the same again, when people talk about crisis I say, what crisis the trouble hasn't even begun yet, and in that case $700billion ain't going to do shit but make the whole thing much, much worse.

A lot of people around the world have their heads in the sand about what is really going on here, some major serious shit.

Aroon_Narayanan
10-05-2008, 08:49 AM
...the same thing is about to happen again as the political and economic power shifts from the States to Asia, it is likely that America will never be the same again.
I completely agree. Perhaps the most telling sign of the power shift to Asia is education. Asian education is becoming more and more superior to American education, especially in the fields of math and science. Because countries like China and India have such high poverty rates, it drives kids more to score well in grade school and go to a great college, because that's their only ticket out of poverty. Kids in the states simply don't have that drive, not to mention the fact that the school system is geared for the lowest common denominator, and the level of education is far lower than it should be. Also, because of the sudden demand for education, colleges in Asia have become far more exclusive and far harder to enter than any U.S. college, and the quality of education has gone up. These days, a degree from IIT (Indian Institute of Technology, equivalent of MIT in India) carries just as much weight in the global market as a degree from MIT.

Americans especially lack in math and science. In fact, we have so few American-born engineers that NASA has to outsource engineering work on the new moon missions to Japan! In this new "information age", technology is what's driving society, and whichever country has the most scientists and engineers is going to dominate technology. Right now, those countries are across the Pacific.

Unless Americans wake up and realize that we're competing with the world for economic power, we will no longer be a world superpower. It may already be too late, seeing as by the time any reforms would be put in place, we would already be missing a generation of entreperneurs, engineers, and scientists.

Granty
10-05-2008, 09:32 AM
The biggest economy's in the world based on savings, and not debt, are Japan, China, Saidia Arabia & Russia, in that order. All these countries make money selling to America apart from Russia, they make most money selling globally their natural resources.

If you include debt in 2007 the European economy had overtaken the American economy on GDP, you may state that America is a single country and Europe isn't, but in all but legal status most of Europe now functions like a set of united states, law, currency, governments, etc.

But America's biggest problem is over-spending, it is no good being big and powerful if that is paid for by the rest of the world, each America owes about $33k in national debt, more worrying each American owes $4k of that debt to China alone. And that is an interesting figure, as it is twice as much as the $700billion bail-out, America owes China alone $1400billion, and that is rising by the second, everytime you go shopping that goes up. America doesn't have money to save, the Chinese government saves 50% of it's (the biggest peace time savings ever), and mostly uses it to buy American debt, meaning in a few years China will have your asses in a sling. The money that China does spend goes into growing the country economically and millitiary wise, this is the only country in the world to have an arsenal of nuclear land-mines. And these figures don't include interest on that debt.

American now owes $10,000,000,000,000 (Is that 10 trillion I'm no sure?)- since this time last year it has gone up by $3billion per day!

That is over four times Jim Jannard's wealth each day of new debt!!!! I state that because Jannard isn't quite a billionaire, America has 400+ billionaires, even if these people donated an avg $1billion each to save America that would only come to $400billion, the super rich can't even save America, if they were inclined to.

That is why $700billion will not do shit to save the market, it only pays for 233 days of yet more debt!!!! If you want to save America, stop consuming and start saving otherwise....

Watch it go at the famous American debt clock http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

JonFairhurst
10-05-2008, 10:12 AM
Given the debt situation, it's amazing that the Republican platform is still "big military, small taxes." They don't seem to understand the concept of "sustainability."

David Rasberry
10-05-2008, 11:16 AM
I completely agree. Perhaps the most telling sign of the power shift to Asia is education. Asian education is becoming more and more superior to American education, especially in the fields of math and science. Because countries like China and India have such high poverty rates, it drives kids more to score well in grade school and go to a great college, because that's their only ticket out of poverty. Kids in the states simply don't have that drive, not to mention the fact that the school system is geared for the lowest common denominator, and the level of education is far lower than it should be. Also, because of the sudden demand for education, colleges in Asia have become far more exclusive and far harder to enter than any U.S. college, and the quality of education has gone up. These days, a degree from IIT (Indian Institute of Technology, equivalent of MIT in India) carries just as much weight in the global market as a degree from MIT.

Americans especially lack in math and science. In fact, we have so few American-born engineers that NASA has to outsource engineering work on the new moon missions to Japan! In this new "information age", technology is what's driving society, and whichever country has the most scientists and engineers is going to dominate technology. Right now, those countries are across the Pacific.

Unless Americans wake up and realize that we're competing with the world for economic power, we will no longer be a world superpower. It may already be too late, seeing as by the time any reforms would be put in place, we would already be missing a generation of entreperneurs, engineers, and scientists.

Chinese and Japanese schools teach all of their students math and sciences to a very high level. Its not that American kids can't do well, the curriculum has been dumbed down for most kids so they don't have to work nearly as hard as asians typically do. It is not uncommon for kids here to graduate high school and not be able to calculate change for a dollar in their head, much less do higher level math. That is not the kid's fault. It is a result of deliberate education policies.

acoelho1
10-05-2008, 11:44 AM
Spending is an issue. With all the uproar about the bailout, no one seemed to notice the House passed a 612 billion defense bill, which is littered with pork barrel spending and unfortunately, Eisenhower's fears of the "military industrial complex" has come to be realized.

Aroon_Narayanan
10-06-2008, 02:43 PM
Chinese and Japanese schools teach all of their students math and sciences to a very high level. Its not that American kids can't do well, the curriculum has been dumbed down for most kids so they don't have to work nearly as hard as asians typically do. It is not uncommon for kids here to graduate high school and not be able to calculate change for a dollar in their head, much less do higher level math. That is not the kid's fault. It is a result of deliberate education policies.
Definately. I wasn't blaming the kids for anything--they can only learn what they are taught.

holy_handgrenade
10-06-2008, 03:39 PM
The US ranks with 3rd world countries like Cuba in quality and availability of care and general health of the population

We could only hope to have Cuba's healthcare system. Cuba, being Communist - has a wonderful healthcare system that is available to 100% of the populace. Medicines are cheaper, and in recent decades, Cuba has been on the forefront of medical treatment and care in the Western Hemisphere.

holy_handgrenade
10-06-2008, 03:53 PM
Asian education is becoming more and more superior to American education, especially in the fields of math and science.

Sorry for the double post, but couldn't let this one slide.

Asian educational systems have ALWAYS dominated US Education system. The system there is to educate hard and fast. The average elementary equivalent graduate there has a much higher education level than the average high school graduate here.

Our education system stinks, and the money is behind this. It's about creating good workers; so we have "competent" but not educated workers - keeping in mind that this was designed around a manufacturing based economy. With the education we have, you dont necessarily despise your life, or your job, if you're pressing buttons on the assembly line for 40 years then retire. With a quality education, real skills, and real ability; your manufacturing workforce will grow bored and leave; or demand a higher pay.

Now that our economy has shifted, our education system has not. Based on my own limited research; America is the worst educated of all Industrialized countries, ranking even below 3rd world nations (3rd world nations have excellent education, it's just expensive therefore not available to the populace at large)

David Rasberry
10-06-2008, 03:57 PM
If Cuba had the income to back up their health care system, it would be excellent. As it is they rank 38th overall to our 37th. But they do it on less than $500.00 per person per year, compared to around $6700 in the US.

holy_handgrenade
10-06-2008, 04:01 PM
If Cuba had the income to back up their health care system

well, without economic sanctions from the U.S., they probably would have the economy to rival ours.

funny thing, China is the only "red" country that we dont have any qualms with dealing with.

JonFairhurst
10-06-2008, 10:13 PM
How about that McCain health care proposal? In short, he wants to give us all a $5,000 credit toward buying health insurance. To pay for it, he will tax employers who provide health benefits.

I've heard that the average amount that employers pay for health insurance is #12,000 per employee. (I haven't yet verified it.)

Clearly, employers on the margin will drop or cut health care benefits, urging employees to buy their own.

The real winner is the insurance industry. Rather than dealing with employers, who can threaten to take their large contracts elsewhere, the insurance companies will deal with individuals, who have little power.

In effect, our power as health care consumers will be disaggregated.

Just over a year ago, my daughter needed treatment. It was clearly covered by the insurance policy. The insurance refused to pay. They even called me, trying to trick me into saying something that would get them off the hook.

The thing is, my employer self insures. The employer uses a health insurance company to administer the plan, but it's really my employer who pays the cost.

After a few strong letters from my employer, the insurance company relented. They paid the bill.

Now, what do you think would have happened if I bought insurance as an individual? If I wanted to get the insurance company to honor their contract, I would need to get a lawyer, and put time and money against their team of retained corporate lawyers. Maybe I could win, but it might take years off my life.

Now imagine that I have no family, that I am the sick or injured party. How the hell can I organize a lawsuit from my hospital bed?

If you haven't seen the film yet, watch Sicko. It shows that insurance companies screw over their insured clients time and time again.

McCain's plan makes insurance companies more powerful than ever. It puts patients in powerless positions.

If you believe that Wall Street needed to be better regulated, the health insurance industry needs it twice as much. When the market goes down, the government reacts. When the insurance company leaves you bankrupt, nobody will do a thing.

Stay healthy, everybody.

Peter Majtan
10-06-2008, 11:57 PM
Jon, even I am not from the USA, I visit rather often and I am going to spend a better part of the next 6 moths over there. I saw Sicko and it is an eye-opener, especially since I am European. I could not believe it. This is one thing that really worries me...

David Rasberry
10-07-2008, 07:16 AM
Jon, even I am not from the USA, I visit rather often and I am going to spend a better part of the next 6 moths over there. I saw Sicko and it is an eye-opener, especially since I am European. I could not believe it. This is one thing that really worries me...


The American health care system is a total mess, why people don't get the advantages of universal public funding as the most efficient and lowest cost way to fund it is beyond me. We've been sold a very expensive bill of goods for insurance coverage that in most cases doesn't provide full coverage anyway. Yet we pay twice as much on average as any other first world industrial democracy and they all provide universal health coverage to their citizens.

MattN
10-07-2008, 11:48 AM
My mom recently had to fight to get her MS medicine because her new insurance company thought that a cheaper variety would be better for her. This is all right before she has to go have brain surgery, in which she had world class treatment, so it's crazy how much juxtaposition we have here when it comes to health care. Sometimes at its best, sometimes at its worst.